Clover

Parker

Welcome to a sex workers Guide to the Galaxy, where the answer to life, the universe and everything is sex workers. I'm your host, Parker Westwood. If you want to support the pod, you can tell your friends about it. You can become a patron, you can share about it on social media, you can rate it five stars and give a great review. Because I know you would. So, there's all sorts of ways you can support eventually I will have merch because it's just one of my favorite things. And and so you can also buy that eventually. I'm not going to talk about that. Well, whatever. I just talked about it. So that's a thing in the future, there will be merch, can you imagine having that juicy peach with a rocket around it? Somewhere on your person? You're the person who will be buying this merch. Do you want me to say juicy peach again, I'll do it. Juicy Peach. And today we're going to be talking about disability and sex work. Both on the side of disability as a sex worker and disability as a client, and then just kind of how all those things, mingle. My guest today is the one and only clever Clover of clover travels of all the things just clover, super grateful to have her on the show we've gotten to work together a couple of times, it is always a pleasure. Before we get into the interview, I just want to talk about a little of what I've learned doing this podcast because this, this episode is one where like, I wish I would have learned something sooner. So, I'm just gonna share that with you. There's a lot of giggling in this episode. And normally, now that I know more, I would edit that out. But it's really hard to do that when it's all one audio track and there's a thing that as a podcaster, you learn the importance of having separate audio tracks for each person speaking, whether it's just two or three or whatever, each person has their own audio track. So, you can cut out like coughing or giggling or whatever and I didn't know how to do that. I didn't even actually know that. That's what you do to get such a clean audio track. So, I apologize that it's kind of all on top of each other, but I have since learned how to do that in zoom, and that that's possible and that I shouldn't be doing that. So yeah, this is just a learning episode where my audio is a little rough around the edges, but it's a fun interview. Clover is a gem. And we do giggle a lot. That's just kind of the nature of how Clover and I communicate. I think if you could translate our giggles, I'm sure you'd find all sorts of things in there. So, I hope you all enjoy it. It's got some good juicy content, some heartwarming moments. Yeah. Without further ado, here's my interview with Clover. All right, thanks for joining me today, Clover. I'm so excited to have you here.

Clover

I'm happy to be here.

Parker

Great. And normally I just have people introduce themselves the way they prefer to be introduced pronoun any sort of identifiers that you'd like to share and then where you're from and what kind of sex work you do.

Clover

Okay, I'm Clover, You can call me she her. Um, I do both in person and online work and I am from a lot of places. I'm based in San Diego. I've lived a lot of places. I don't really feel like I'm from one particular place.

Parker

Yes, it shows you have a you're very worldly

Clover

Thanks.

Parker

and just to kind of start out like letting people get to know you a little bit. How did you get started in sex work?

Clover

So as a lot of people got started in this, I needed to pay rent. I was living in New York City at the time with my best friend. We were living together in a room because we couldn't afford having our own rooms in the apartment. So, we were splitting a room Paying $500 a month each. And I, I was a nanny for a while and then I got let go without much warning. And I had to pay rent in a week. So, I was like, all right, let's, let's pay some rent. So, I went on Craigslist, and I found an ad for a massage parlor. So I was going to sex parties at the time and I was like, fuck it, I can give, like hand jobs, whatever. And so I went for the interview, and she, the lady said something to me, which I'll never forget. She said to me, you could be a high-end escort and and I just thought, I have no idea what that means. Like, do I have a job? Like, I gotta pay rent? I don't know but no, obviously. Now I know what she meant.

Parker

Yeah.

Clover

Yeah. So, I worked at the rub'n'tug for like four or five months. And that was going well enough. But you had to pay 50% to the house. So, you know, one day I made $1,000. And I was like, oh, I actually made $2,000. But, you know, half that money wasn't mine. So, I'm met around that time, I met my ex-girlfriend who was a full fledged escort. And we met at a open mic sex night, where she got up and told a story about fisting. And I was super interested in that at the time. So, I just went introduced myself to her and gave her my number. I saw her the next night. And you know, I told her what I was doing with my life. And she said, well, why don't you quit there and just travel with me and be an escort. So, I was like, Okay, let's do it.

Parker

Oh, that's amazing.

Clover

Yeah, the relationship didn't work out. But she did teach me a lot of valuable lessons, which I am forever grateful for because I got a serious leg up in the beginning.

Parker

Absolutely. Knowing someone in the industry giving you tips is like incredible. Um also just I just love that story, because it just displays how bold you are. Which is always, one of the first things I noticed about you're so very forward. And I love that

Clover

Yeah, I've gotten a lot more emboldened in my, my older years too so

Parker

It’’s the best. Well, we're also one of the things I do is I have people walk us through like a day in the life of and I know, in sex work, our days vary so much. But if you, let's say like a day where you have a booking, what what that would sort of look like for you.

Clover

Well, some days I'm the kind of person that's like, I have an appointment at four so, I can't do anything all day. Some days. I mean, I'll clean and like get the place and myself ready, but other than that I'm like, oh, no, I'm just gonna play video games, like lay on the couch. A lot. Oh, I would say a lot lot of days because I have limited reserves of energy, which is something I've really had to struggle with, with coming to terms with. And it's like, okay, um, you know, I can save all that energy for work, or I can like, do things, but if I'm doing a bunch of stuff and working the same day, then then that then I tend to get sick.

Parker

Yeah, when we push ourselves too hard, and then especially as we're going to get into when you have a chronic disability. Well, cool, which leads us directly into my next question, which is that you you had selected the topic of disability justice as it relates to sex work and we've talked about this a little bit outside the podcast, I'm really excited to talk to you about it, but why don't you tell our listeners what your experiences with disability and disability justice and like kind of why you selected this as a focus for your episode.

Clover

So, for me, I have not always been a person with a chronic illness, but I grew up with people with chronic illnesses like my mother has several which is where I get some of mine from Thanks, mom. And, um, you know, I have family members that are mentally and physically disabled. I it just comes from my my life, my normal everyday life, because a lot of people I know have disabilities. When I got in the industry, I was pretty healthy. My immune system got really great from being a hooker Yeah, and I wasn't really sick for a while and then maybe about three years ago now. I started being really sick just like feeling like crap all the time and just not just not feeling good. It took me it took a while to figure out what was going on with me, but I have fibromyalgia and the basic description of that is the pain receptors in your brain misfire. So, there's a lot of other components that go along with fibromyalgia that are just like so random and wild. I'm like, is this a part of that I Google it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that early. That random morning nausea. Yeah, it's a part of it. Okay. Yeah, it's not bad. It's just like, I have to eat. if I don't eat, I'll be nauseous. And like, if I get it's weird, but yeah, so it deals with a lot of like, chronic pain. I have the Princess and the Pea syndrome. Do you know? Have you heard you know that you know, the story, the princess in the pea? So, for if anyone doesn't know of it, it's the story of this princess who is so so special and tender, that she can feel a little pea underneath 100 mattresses, and she can tell where the pea is. So that's kind of what I experienced sometimes. If my fibromyalgia is like really flaring up, I mean, I have the sensitivity day to day, but if it's really flaring up. It'll be super exacerbated. Like, if I'm laying on a couch, and I'm sitting on my left hip, and not on my right, my left hip will start hurting within a few minutes. Or if I'm like, if I'm laying and there's like a blanket crumpled under me it'll start hurting. It's, it's ridiculous, but you know, it's what I deal with on a day-to-day basis. Um, some days are fine, and some days are not fine. And, yeah, that's kind of how it is. Yeah, so for me, the disability part in sex work, it's it's personal, but it's also business. So early on, I must have been a sex worker for like six or seven months, I met my first client with disability. And he's amazing. Like, he's still my clients this day and he's a very sweet, amazing person and he has MD and he is wheelchair bound. So, when I see him, I have to physically drag him out of his chair and onto the bed and place him you know, and and, and move him and it and I'm fine with that. Like, I don't mind.

Parker

yeah

Clover

Yeah, I've taken care of people with disabilities for like, you tell me what you need. I got you, but for, for him finding someone who was capable, and compassionate and it doesn't look at him like, oh, you know, you're just some dude in a wheelchair. Like, you don't have any sexual needs. Like, whoa, like, that's important for people with disability because they're, they're so underrepresented.

Parker

And that's like, not a turn on to be looked down at.

Clover

Yeah, no, who wants to be looked at and be like, oh, you poor thing like, I'll give you a pity Fuck.

Parker

yeah, fuck that.

Clover

Oh, it's insulting Or, or on the opposite spectrum to fetishize them for their disability. Because there are people that do that to it and some of them are fine with it, you know, they're like, okay, yeah, I'll work with what I got. But there are people with feelings, too and some people are not okay with it, I actually have an excerpt from him that I'd like to read in a little bit, just for him from his perspective as a client. Also, I have close friends in the industry who have disabilities, like my very good friend, Ava Raleigh, she actually inspired me a lot to be more public about my disability because she has a disability and she's always spoken about it in her blogs, and like, openly talked about it. So, when I came to terms with the fact that I had a disability, I was like, I'm going to be like, Ava, I'm going to talk about it and it's not going to be a big deal, or like, bad thing or anything, but this exists in my life. So I'm going to talk about it.

Parker

Yeah, I know that for a lot of us coming forward with something like that we worry about potentially losing clients or seeing like being seen in a negative light around it. What was your experience when you started to actively talk about it?

Clover

I've only had good experiences, you know, a lot of people don't know what it is. And that's fine. I'm more than happy to to give them a little spiel about what what it's what it means to have fibromyalgia and even if I did lose people like fuck 'em whatever

Parker

100% I think the more the more the longer I'm in this business, the more I'm just like I'm I can only show up as I am and and i you don't like it, find someone else.

Clover

Yep, exactly. Like you're gonna get me. If you don't like me then. Alright,

Parker

then what are you doing here? Yeah.

Clover

Bye

Parker

One of the questions I did have for you too was though, what are your thoughts on the term disabled versus different-abled?

Clover

Um, I personally don't mind either of them. It doesn't I I'm not a person who is bothered by terms, I will blatantly and frequently call myself a prostitute. Like it knows the, the words don't bother me. I know they do bother some people, but personally, like, I don't give a shit. I feel like as long as we're discussing these things, and like making more people aware, I'll use whatever term people want me to use, you know?

Parker

Yeah, absolutely. And for listeners who don't know, the reason why those two terms are brought up, or why I brought them up is the disabled has the prefix dis-, which has a negative connotation. So, there are people in the disability justice movement who are pushing for differently-abled, but yeah, I find that a lot of people in the disability justice community also are have are like you and they're like, Yeah, I'm disabled. It's like, let's just use the word and keep keep moving.

Clover

It's not a bad word to me personally, you know?

Parker

Absolutely.

Clover

It was kind of difficult to have to come to terms with like, understanding like, I am a disabled person. That's, that's the term for me, but because, well, at first, I felt like it was limiting. But when I looked at it in another way, like, no, this is just the realist the realism of this, like, I am not capable of doing things like other people in certain contexts. So it is what it is.

Parker

Yeah. And once you embrace and, like, have compassion for yourself, in that moment, you're able to work with what you've got, and probably end up doing more than like, when you would spend time trying not to be

Clover

Yeah,

Parker

trying to like act as if you weren't disabled? Yeah.

Clover

Yeah, I would be very, very sick if I was trying to act like, I wasn't disabled.

Parker

So as as someone with an invisible disability, what do you want people to understand about people with disabilities?

Clover

I feel like a lot of us people with an invisible bit [garbled]. Okay, we'll start that over.

Parker

Yeah. Also, maybe the maybe define what invisible disability is, since I just totally skipped over that too.

Clover

Yeah, well I'll start with that. Okay. So, an invisible disability is kind of what it sounds like, you know, it's a disability that you can't see with your eyes. There. It's not a physical disability, it's more of an internal disability. So, it's more how our bodies are acting, than than looking or like, I mean, people with physical disabilities too their bodies act differently, but it's, it's visible. You you see them, you clearly know, okay, this person has different needs than the rest of us. But for me, it's like, people getting upset with me, because I look healthy, like, oh, or they, they just, they're like, oh, you're just being sensitive. Yeah, I'm a very, I'm a very sensitive body. So kinda, but also, I have real limits that you can't see because you look at me and you see someone who's fit and looks good. They don't see the side of me, where, where I'm hurting so badly I can’t get out of bed, or you're like spending hours in the hot bathtub, because that's one of the only places that I'm comfortable. What was the next what was the other question?

Parker

It was mostly like, what do you want people to understand about people with disabilities as someone with an invisible disability?

Clover

Um, yeah, it's just that like, please take me a bit more seriously when I am like, this is not gonna work for me. Or, you know, like, I'm physically not comfortable. There like, my back's gonna hurt in two minutes if I if I like try to do that position with you. Like you can't push on my legs when you're trying to fuck me like that'll hurt my hips really bad. Yeah, so like, a lot of people think, oh, you know, you're just doing it to do it or whatever. But for me, it's like, this is my body I have to deal with the pain. So, I'm going to be assertive about what's not working for me because you don't you can't you might not be able to comprehend what's going on in me because a lot of people it's like if you look fine, you should be fine, but since my big issue is with pain receptors like you can't you can't see that.

Parker

Not to mention there's like a historical precedent of femme identified people or femme presenting people, not being taken seriously about their pain or anything having to do with their bodies. And that's like, reflected in current legal situations around like abortion and whatnot. It feels very much like the oh, she's just being hysterical sort of language from back in the day.

Clover

Yeah. Yeah, like a lot of people brush it off. I mean, even in my personal relationship, I would deal with not being taken seriously, when, when I'm in so much pain, oh, it'll be fine to take some Tylenol like, whatever, you know, like, it's like, no, for me to be fine, I need to actually change a lot of what I'm doing with my lifestyle or furniture, or, you know, just how I hold myself. I actually started doing Pilates a year and a half ago, four days a week, because, well, last summer, I went to Europe for a few months, and I was very physical and, and I was really starting to work on my health because I was so sick that I didn't want to live like I was just like, I'm done with life. Like, I feel like shit all the time. So going to Europe and being really active, I started to feel better, and turns out, working out helps fibromyalgia a lot. So um, when I got back to the States, I started doing Pilates. And that's helped a lot. Like a lot, a lot. I will have some days, I don't feel like mornings are usually worse for me. So, I'll wake up, feel like crap, go to Pilates and then I'm relatively okay for the rest of the day.

Parker

Yeah, I've also had to go through moments of accepting my body where it's at. And you and I talked, when we last saw each other about, I'm going through some weird body things where I'm not sure what's going on having some pain and I did find out that I have an ovarian cyst. It's not PCOS, like Imaybe thought it was but it was a relief to find that out. But having having those moments of having compassion for my body, where it's at, and learning that rhythm of like, you know, you feel like shit in the morning and Pilates helps you to feel like you can manage the day. And I've had moments like that too and I think it's really empowering to accept our bodies where they're at and I wish that that was more encouraged in the greater culture that were in it instead of this, like, no just push through it just take more ibuprofen, like,

Clover

right,

Parker

yeah, it's not helpful to have that.

Clover

No, no. And honestly, it was not easy for me at first. I mean, I had a good, good mental breakdown, coming to terms with what I was actually capable of, because that meant I had to limit a lot of things that I do. Because like I said, previously, I have X amount of energy and it seems like if I use if I use more energy than I, I don't know the numbers, it's got, I got to figure it out day by day, you know, but if I use more energy than my body has or wants me to, I pay for that the next day by feeling really sick.

Parker

Yeah,

Clover

so, a lot of the times photoshoots and video shoots for me are very, I love doing them, like art is pain. Pain is art. I'm some of the best art I've done. I was in so much pain. But you know, so like, I will choose like, is this worth it to me to feel like utter shit for a few days. So, I just did a photoshoot like a eight hour photoshoot and it was like, fucking awesome. I got such great stuff. And you know, I'm kind of reaping what I sowed, but honestly, I haven't done a photoshoot like that in a really long time and I don't feel as bad as I would have two years ago. Yeah, like there is progress. When I came to terms with it, I had a bit of a breakdown because I thought it's always going to be this bad. I'm always going to be this sick, but in reality, like actually doing real self-care, not just like going to the spa. Like learning that I need to take time like physical time and just be inactive. Like that improved my quality of life so much now that I can I can feel like I can do more things.

Parker

Yeah, it's it feels counterintuitive at the time where you're like if I am if I allow myself some inactivity, of course balanced with obviously, Pilates pretty regularly. But if I allow myself the time to slow down, I can do more things. It feels like it just doesn't make sense. It does not compute in our little capitalist infused brains, but it really it really is important because that breathing room is the place for creative where creativity can thrive and it shows in your work. I encourage everyone to go look at Clovers’ photos because she has some incredible seat like series of photos. They're really beautiful.

Clover

Thank you

Parker

Of course, all that's going to be linked in the show notes. I also I wanted to give us time to talk about clients with disability. But I also wanted to talk about this notion that is used for people to legitimize sex work, you know, sex work is important because like it helps with like disabled people and their ability to have. And it's, I feel like it's the same approach that people had to use for legalization of marijuana where they were like, [garbled] you know, yes, but also, it's a valid career path. So, um, I would love to hear your thoughts on that and also, just like, your experience with some of your disabled clients,

Clover

I feel like using that argument for legalizing sex work is good and all, but it needs to be seen as the more complete picture. Yeah, like you're saying, you know, it's good for that. It's, it's good for relationships, as funny as that sounds. I know. I mean, I know, we see a lot of married men, and they love their wives. It's not that they don't love their wives, they love their wives, but their wives are maybe not interested in sex, have been injured in some way and cannot have sex, or, you know, like, maybe they have mental problems, and these people still have these urges these needs, but they're, they're not able to get or they don't want to get them in a circumstance like where they would just go meet somebody because that could have serious issues with their relationship. Maybe they just want it clean business, like, you know, so yeah, I feel like using disability for the argument is good. It's but it should just be one point in the argument. Like, it shouldn't be the whole argument of why we should decriminalize. But, but speaking of sex work with a disability disabled capacity, a really close friend of mine that I've known since I was 12. All my, my personal friends know that I'm a sex worker, if I'm still friends with them, after all this time, they know. And she sent me this link once and it was about I think it's in Oregon, they have this it's called Sex surrogacy and yeah, that's pretty much what it is. It's an actual service for people with disabilities of sex workers, and, and it is legal there. And it's I think it's also legal in Canada, like, obviously, because Canadian, it's well it's more legal there, but they have services for that. So, I just think that's pretty neat. Um, you know, because while yes, I do see clients with disabilities, I know that a lot of them are living on fixed incomes. And a lot of people who would like to see sex workers can't afford it. I mean, I have one client, who, he's great. He's awesome. I love him. He sends me money, like every so often, just little bits like $80 here, $200 there to prepay for appointments, because he is on a fixed income and he can't the state will be like, what are you spending all this money on? If he's sending it like at once, like, so he has to cheat the system. And I some I've seen some escorts be like, I don't accept payments like that, blah, blah? Well, I do because not accepting it. It's kind of ableist this is the way he can see me while still working within his system and getting his benefits. So yeah, I'm gonna take that, like, he's paying me. I don't see any problem with anything else. Like, you know, um, and it's fine. You know, I'll do my email, it'll be like 100 bucks today, that's nice.

Parker

I think they also have that service in the Netherlands too I was reading about it recently in I think it's, it's really cool and one of the things that I read about that service in the Netherlands is that it's not just a service specifically for disabled folks to see sex workers. But it's, it's basically just saying you can use this disability money, however you want to, and that includes using it for sex workers if you want to, whereas in the US, a) the disability money is like not even enough to survive on and then b) they have such a chokehold on how you use it.

Clover

I mean, it's kind of like cruel. It's quite cruel, and also people with disabilities can't get married, or else they won't be able to keep their benefits. So that restricts them in enjoying things like everyone else, like getting married to their partner.

Parker

Yeah, I think there's a there's a lot politically as around disability justice that has a there's a lot of room for improvement. Just a ton of room for improvement. We govern, our government, does not take disabled people at their word or trust them to spend money, the way that

Clover

they treat them like children. You know, a lot of people see that people, disabled people as children like, oh, you can't fend for yourself. You must be like a child or whatever, which, which really isn't fair. There are certainly people with disabilities who in there who are stuck in childlike states, but that's a small percentage of people with disabilities.

Parker

Absolutely. Yeah. Hence, the not not seeing them as sexual beings.

Clover

Mm hmm.

Parker

they kind of do the same thing with old older people as well.

Clover

Mm hmm.

Parker

Would you do you want to take the time to read that piece from

Clover

Yes. So this client of mine, he is a professional in his late 40s, with muscular dystrophy, and he uses a power wheelchair for mobility. He asked me to describe him as that and I feel like that's a very apt description of him. But I also should add that he's one of the smartest, nicest people I've ever met in my entire life. Yeah, he's really, he, I call him my friend and we see each other with the sex worker client relationship, but we are also very deep friends. Okay, so he says "my ability to come to know Clover to partner with her in exploring my sensuality has been very important to me. I did not seek her companionship to fill a void or address some unmet need. I'm lucky to have a great deal of intimacy in my life. I have a very loving family, deeply meaningful, long life, relationships, strong professional relationships with colleagues whom I cherish. Indeed, for me, most importantly, I have a deeply fulfilling spiritual life. In addition to all this, my relationship with Clover has empowered me and emoldened me to explore sensualities in ways I hadn't known possible before we met. By way of background, the nature of my muscular dystrophy causes me to be physically dependent on others for quite literally everything. Essentially, I have enough strength to guide my power wheelchair with my thumb and forefinger, and that's about it. In order to be independent, and have my needs addressed, I rely completely on my ability to communicate with my needs and desires to others, and to have them help me to address them with my guidance. I've made this work in most parts of my life, but as you can imagine, when it comes to sexuality, and intimacy, it is tricky to say the least, and involves trusting others in all of your vulnerability, and arguably the highest stakes aspect of the sentient human experience. I had experienced with sex both in committed relationships and with sex workers before I met Clover, they were perfectly good and for the most part healthy, however, in none of them did, I feel the need, feel the freedom to be completely vulnerable, honest and forthcoming about my needs and desires, mostly because of deeply rooted fears of stigma and judgment. In Clover, I have found someone who was completely accepting of all differences, who was deeply committed to understanding me what I can and cannot do, what I do and do not enjoy and who was committed to being creative about having helping me to be a full and equal sex partner. She was willing to have courageous conversations with me about what for many people are really uncomfortable topics like sex and disability. These courageous conversations emboldened me to, with her support, push myself past my preconceived limits, and has allowed me to find sex more rewarding and fulfilling that I have ever imagined possible. I am certainly conscious and mindful of the boundaries of our sex worker client relationship, while I cherish Clover's friendship, I know what we are to each other and what we are not. Indeed, in many aspects, these boundaries are freeing and liberating, I think, to both of us. That being said, being mindful of these parameters, because Clover has allowed me to experience and discover aspects of myself that I didn't know existed in a very real way. My relationship with her has been one of the most significant ones in my life.” He's so sweet.

Parker

Ohhhhh,

Clover

I cried. The first time I read that, oh, my god.

Parker

It's so sweet.

Clover

He's also it's also very beautiful, because he's so eloquent. And he really puts it into beautiful words, his experience.

Parker

Yeah. It's it's very clear, and very humanizing on his end, like I can feel that. Oh, cool. Well, I hope he listens and thank you so much for sharing that that is,

Clover

I think he will, I think he will.

Parker

Well if you're out there thank you so much

Clover

actually, I wish I could remember the name of it, but there's this. So for anyone who's listening who has disabilities, there's this crowdsourcing app. Hopefully I can remember and you can add it in later where you can make notes of different shops, restaurants, bars places that are like, are disability accessible or are not and like what various ways they are, like wheelchair ramps or rails or accessible toilets, you know, so I'll have to search and find out what the app is because that would be a cool thing for you to include just for anybody who has a disability, you know, because the more we use it, the better it gets.

Parker

Oh, absolutely. So cool. Oh, my God, I love that. There was an article I found, I think it came out like a couple years ago, Haley Jade wrote an article called, I'm a disabled sex worker. And this is what I want you to know. And one of the things she talks about that I don't want to leave this conversation without touching on is the idea of like how accessible sex work is as a career choice. For more people with disabilities, she also talks about how SESTA and FOSTA made it more difficult for people with disabilities to participate. And for people who don't know, what SESTA and FOSTA is. Do you would you want to like give a brief, you can or I can, I just don't want to talk too much.

Clover

I'd probably talk a lot of shit. So it's better if you do it.

Parker

e United States in October of: 2018

Clover

April,

Parker

April: 2018

Clover

god

Parker

Ultimately, what I did was censor sex work online. So, any any platform that was found, quote, unquote, like promoting prostitution would be a you were able to be held liable for the prostitution taking place.

Clover

It wasn't just the prostitution; it basically makes websites liable for any user posted content.

Parker

So, if it were if there was like hate speech, they could be held liable for that.

Clover

It extends a lot farther than that now, which actually is coming into play very hysterically, of after the whole White House insurrection day, because yeah, that that's why a lot of the apps took off parlor because they could be held liable for what happened. And they were like, we're not whoops, nope. So, it's coming to play for normal people now too in more ways than just that, but that was the biggest one lately.

Parker

If you can call the people who stormed the White House or the capital normal people

Clover

Oh, yeah, no, no, sorry. I wasn't calling them normal people I just meant civilians in general not sex workers

Parker

yeah, so that's it. The reason why we were explaining what SESTA FOSTA is, is because it it made it not safe to do online sex work or online advertising and so it forced more people to the streets to do sex work and if you are disabled especially if you're disabled physically or you can't stand for hours on end. Street work is not accessible. It's also just a lot less safer. You can't screen clients. Yeah, I mostly wanted to bring that up because I think it's super important. And again, Haley Jade I'll I'll link that article in the show notes. But it was really it was really well done.

Clover

Oh, no.

Parker

Oh, no. Are we are we glitching? That's okay. We'll come back

Clover

There we go. There you go.

Parker

We'll be right back after these messages

Parker

after this quick break, [doo doo do do][Jeopardy theme]

Parker

One day I'm gonna have like cool people promoting things on my podcast for sex toys and who knows only fans I don't know.

That'd be fun. Yeah,

Parker

yeah. If only fans decided to shell out any money to a sex worker

Clover

Well speaking of you can find me on onlyfans I sell my porn for cheaper on there than manyvids so you know

Parker

I'll be putting all of your links your your Twitter your website your only fans your Instagram in the show notes as well.

Clover

I don't have Instagram but but thank you all the rest I'll send you

Parker

cool perfect.

Clover

By the way, I just want to say fuck Instagram because they were the first ones where you couldn't show your nipples way before SESTA FOSTA and like fuck you like no

Parker

yeah yeah they don't even have like SESTA FOSTA to lean on.

Clover

No.

Parker

Yeah. Is there anything else? Like you feel like we haven't covered around disability?

Clover

Um, yeah, actually, there's one more thing I'd like to talk about, which is a disability in porn. Um, so yeah, I have been, like wanting for years to you know, start a production company. And thanks to COVID actually got off my ass and started doing some more filming and learning, editing. And what I realized after talking to another one of my clients, who is disabled, and he has cerebral palsy, and he has a really big dick. You've got a great porn dick and you know, we were joking. One time I was like, oh, yeah, we should film some porn. And then I got to thinking about it seriously, and, and I don't really offer to film porn with clients like that. I usually, you know, how it's an upcharge. It's like, one of the only upcharges I do, but I felt like, you know, one he's, he's on a fixed income and two, that is actually something that I would like to do is help there be more representation for people with disabilities in porn and not make it fetishized because a lot of the disability representation in porn is fetishized. It's like, oh, yeah, girl in a wheelchair getting fucked and that's like, the thing is because she's in a wheelchair, or like in a leg cast, or like, whatever. And it's not about it, making these people feel human and have representation for themselves. It's about fetishizing them. So, we actually shot a video a few months ago, and I still haven't edited it, because I'm like that sometimes and I do plan on getting that done sometime soon. But it is a goal for me in the coming years to make more representation porn for people with disabilities.

Parker

It's so important. Actually, I'm just going to say this, because why the fuck not? You actually remind me a lot of a young Annie Sprinkle. I don't know if I've told you this.

Clover

I don't know if you've told me yet. But I've definitely been told that before.

Parker

Yeah. And not just because you're a redhead but also because well, the Annie Sprinkle just was a pioneer in the porn industry. And actually, I think was one of the first people to film with someone with a disability.

Clover

Mm hmm.

Parker

So that's, that just reminded me of that. And I was like, oh, this is a chance to bring up Annie Sprinkle because I do it at any time.

Clover

I love her name. It's so cute.

Parker

I know. She's also like, still creating work and doing really incredible things. So, representation in porn needs to happen more. Yeah, I think that's really incredible. Have you thought about how you would like ethically market that because I know a lot of porn is like, buzzwords. And

Clover

I have thought somewhat some about that. And what I would do is I would use probably the tag words, but I wouldn't put it in the title or the description. So So yeah, for searching stuff, like, you know, I might use disability or whatever, but but I'm not gonna make it be focused about that. The tag words are are literally just describing the video. I don't feel bad about using them for that reason, because you're describing the video, but I don't want to sell it as something that's like, oh, yeah, watch this guy in a wheelchair get fucked and sucked off. Like, that's not what I'm going to say. I will just, you know, I'll make up some sexy title like big dick gets sucked off or whatever. I actually I actually pay somebody to write my porn titles and names for me because I feel like mine are just like, so. cringy.

Parker

But I love that you're self-aware about that.

Clover

No, I just like, look at that. I'm like, oh my god, I hate this. Like, it's so bad. So, I actually have one of my girlfriends. Had someone write some of her captions so I was like, yeah, I'll pay you. You're great.

Parker

It's a skill, it really is.

Clover

Yeah, I feel like I'm just like clinically describing everything.

Parker

You're just like oh that's hot? I just I hope to see some of that

Clover

I gotta edit it. I gotta do it.

Parker

Well, I'm looking forward to it. I am a huge fan of your work also, as I've said before, but I yeah, so I'm really excited to check out some more of your porn that's coming out.

Clover

Thank you. Yeah, I'm sitting on a few good ones that I'm just being lazy but

Parker

I usually end these with some rapid fire questions. Are you

Clover

okay

Parker

Are you feeling closure around our conversation? Is there anything else you want to throw in?

Clover

No, I feel like that's pretty good, that's, that's what I wanted to talk about.

Parker

Right? I feel good about it, too. All right. Okay, so I'm gonna start with some rapid fire. The first three are easy, and then they get a little a little more difficult.

Clover

Okay, cool.

Parker

vanilla or chocolate,

Clover

vanilla

Parker

pancakes or waffles.

Clover

I have gluten and dairy allergies, so depends on how they make them. I think pancakes are easier to make than waffles for that.

Parker

it's true. from experience it's true. books or movies,

Clover

books.

Parker

Favorite place you've ever been.

Clover

Hawaii.

Parker

A book from your mandatory reading list?

Clover

Uh, well, that's hard. I read a lot. I'm like, these days, The Lathe of Heaven. by Ursula K. Le Guin

Parker

Oh, I don't know that. I've heard of that one.

Clover

Oh, my God. It's really fun. You should totally read it. It's a it's like a sci fi fantasy book. It's only 150 pages or so long, but it starts out like really mundane and kind of boring. And it gets like crazier and crazier and crazier until you're like what the fuck.

Parker

perfect

Clover

And, yeah, so the premise is, it's this guy whose dreams literally changed the world. So yeah,

Parker

oh that's cool

Clover

Yeah, it's a super cool book.

Parker

Um, yeah, I'll definitely check that one out. I love me some good sci fi.

Clover

Oh, it's great. She's like the queen of sci fi.

Parker

Oh, great. Okay, secret talent.

Clover

Oh, I mean, I always say squirting but it's not a secret. I can pop my shoulders out of the joints at will.

Parker

Oh my God. That's what both of them?

Clover

Yeah, you wanna see it?

Parker

Yeah, I mean,

Clover

will you hold it. I used to freak kids out in school.

Parker

Oh, that's a favorite hobby of mine. Oh my god. That's so cool.

Clover

Left one. Yeah, the only place I'm double jointed is in the shoulders for this one is a little less but the other one is like

Parker

that's so cool.

Clover

I would I would make people like touch in between there where the bones go and then [small scream] I like to I like to mess with people.

Parker

It's kind of the best. Alright, a song a musical artist or an album that you're currently obsessed with?

Clover

Best friends by Saweetie and Dojo cat?

Parker

Oh, yes.

Clover

I haven't putting that on so much for the last few days. I'm in love.

Parker

It's so good.

Clover

It's so good. It's so good.

Parker

Everyone go listen to it. It will make your day. Finish the sentence. Good. Sex is

Clover

a lot of things. Good sex is fun.

Parker

Agreed. Yeah,

Clover

Good sex is fun period.

Parker

Yeah. If it's not what the fuck are you doing?

Clover

Right.

Parker

If you had one superpower, what would it be?

Clover

I feel like teleportation because then I wouldn't have to spend all this time traveling.

Parker

And then we wouldn't have to worry about COVID while traveling either.

Clover

That too and I feel like I wouldn't be as sick because flying takes a lot on the body, you know?

Parker

Oh, yeah.

Clover

Yeah.

Parker

All right. And then what is something simple that brings you joy?

Clover

Bacon. And flowers

Parker

That was so fast.

Clover

I love bacon. Give me some thick cut, fuck what's, what's that type? Black Forest. That's my favorite. Black Forest. Bacon. thick cut. mmm

Parker

Oh, that sounds amazing. All right, that's that is the end of the rapid we're gonna end on bacon.

Clover

Okay. I used to have this t shirt as a teenager that I thought was the funniest fucking shit. It said vegetarian and in big letters with an asterisk and underneath it said except for bacon.

Parker

Yeah, I feel like alot of people feel that way

Clover

I wasn't a vegetarian,

Parker

but the sentiment was still there.

Clover

Yeah,

Parker

will do dirty things for bacon.

Clover

Yeah. It's meat candy. I mean.

Parker

All right. I love you so much. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Clover

I love you too. Thanks for having me.

Parker

I cut the audio track there because we just go on to talk about potential other episodes, and it was just like a midwestern goodbye, where it just like never ended. I'm from the midwest. So, I only really know it as a midwestern Goodbye. I'm sure it's other regions kind of goodbye as well. I think it's also called like a Norwegian goodbye, whatever, let me know, let me know what other kind of goodbyes is that where it just never ever ends. But it was really great to talk about potential other episodes that we could do. I'd love to have basically everyone who's been on the show on again, because our conversations were so great. And it just, it felt like we didn't get enough time, like there was more we could dig into. So, I'm excited to see where that goes. So, check out the show notes for any of the information that we talked about. I tried to link everything, or at least put notes in the show notes of what we talked about, so you can look it up yourself. But if it's available to link, I try to link it. All of Clover’s links will be in the show notes. Go check her out. She's fantastic and such a creative soul. Yeah, so be kind to each other. Go forth with your day, with your head held high because you're excellent. Thank you so much for listening. And make sure to give us five stars. Us. It's just me. But us I've had people on the show, be sure to give us five stars and write a solid review if you feel so inclined and become a patron. If you're able then if not, that's cool. Just tell your friends to listen. Alright, cool. Toodles. Oh, did you know that when you pee in space, it gets shot outside of the rocket and becomes snow because it's cold. So, you just get to see a flurry of your pee float by in an anti-gravity kind of way. I hope that makes you smile. That's my sign off for today. Nanu nanu motherfuckers